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The current Libyan flagMost countries of the world introduced their flags after their independence or the formation of their countries, Libya was no exception, after Libya became independent in 1951 it adopted the flag that became known as the flag of the kingdom of Libya, many of us of certain age only recognise this flag as the true Libyan flag.
The flag of the Kingdom of LibyaThen after the coup in 1969, Libya became a republic and instead of keeping the original flag, they decided to change it, it would have been fair I suppose if they stuck to an original flag, but no not Libya, they borrowed an old Egyptian flag then added a hawk in the middle of it, which was yet another borrowed flag from the defunct Egyptian / Syrian union, that did not last, in 1977 the all green rug was officially forced on Libyans as their new flag, a plain green rug with no symbols, nothing to represent Libya, just an embarrassing green piece of fabric, of course for many younger generation, that is the only flag they are used to.
The borrowed Egyptian/Syrian union flag
Going back to the Libyan national anthem, again after the 1969 coup, Libya adopted or should I say nicked an old marching anthem from Egypt to become our national anthem, there is nothing to do with Libya in this anthem, nothing to make me proud or to remind me of my country, after all these years what some people do not realise is that many of the new generations have grown up without the usual sense of pride one feels when seeing their flag flying high accompanied by their national anthem, no wonder Libya has become what it is today, full of corruption, full of cheating people after quick money, fat cats that do not care about their country, was that part of the plan of taking our pride away from us?? I wonder!
One Libyan blogger joked about adding a bulldozer to the middle of the green rug because of all the demolition work that is going on in Libya at the moment, well it is funny but it is not a bad idea at all!
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Allah save Libya
22 comments:
Interesting post, even though I disagree about the anthem and national flag having anything to do with national pride.
You yourself said that the newer generation never knew any other flag or national anthem other than the one we now have, so how can it have a negative impact on them ?
I want to check the old national anthem and some other things first before getting into more details with you; but there is one thing I want to ask you given your vigorous support for the old flag I'm sure you can answer it, when you said :
"this flag was forced on the population, whether they liked it or not"
Can you tell me in what way were the Libyans given a say in the choice of the old national flag ? If I'm not mistaken it was chosen at a time when the country was under foreign administration, even if we were granted a quasi form of independence, and I don't remember reading that Libyans, the average Libyans, had a say in what the flag would look like.
At the end of the day it seems to me that it was the ruling elite at the time who chose the flag and thats what happened when the new flag was chosen, so how is it different ?
by the way I'm don't like things like flags nor anthems, never stood to any of them as I deem them superficial and a hypocritical show of patriotism, so I don't care about either flag and wouldn't care about any other flag in the future it really doesn't affect or improve the state of a country.
salaam
salam ph
the new generation know that the anthem is Egyptian and not Libyan, many of the new generation that come to the UK laugh at the all green flag and have no respect for it.
about the old flag, there is a difference, it was adopted after Libya became independent and having no flag at all, with the coup government it was what ever flag they decided they want, that is 3 flags in less than 10 years, this is a big difference my friend.
of course you are entitled to not believe in them but many people do, especially during sporting events and competitions, with Libyans many say thank God we hardly win anything because we do not want to stand to an anthem that is not ours.
Thank you ph.
As PH said, this is a very nice post and i truly can say, that if the "All green" flag was changed i would also be hurt and upset, however, saying that and given the choice today, I would go for the "All Green" flag as a flag is a representative or a means of identity and for my generation (at least) we do identify with the "all green" and nothing cries out "Libya" to us like the "All Green".
I personally think that pride and ties are deeper than a flag and love sometimes can not be symbolized by any color or any flag
Fe Aman Allah
At high school, I used to go to the university library and read books and articles about photosynthesis. I wanted to construct a chlorophyll-based solar battery. Such plans to save the world, the details varying according to personal areas of interest, seem to be usual at that age - though rarely talked about :-).
So naturally I began to like all things green.
Unfortunately, during the last decade I saw the green colour in such contexts that I almost began to hate it.
Let's hope that day shall come when Libyan people will have the opportunity to choose their national flag and anthem according to their free will!
nothing can describe my feeling to this flag like lebyeea words describing it, I felt every single letter of her words, and my eyes bathed with tears while reading:
" How can you want to look at anything else for the rest of your life? Really. Such an enduring and empowering flag and its beyond comparison to anything else in the history of existence "
I really love our flag.
Hi AL,
Thanks for your post. I love the debate that has developed from it, very healthy as ever.
Just an important piece of info. I would like to add, the green flag was not a new invention, and you'll be surprised to hear that its that Libya had the very same flag hundreds of years earlier, i.e the flag was reintroduced in 1977! The green flag was the Fatmid flag who ruled over North Africa from around 900 AD, check this wiki link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimids
Although its important to have national symbols, its more important to remember they are just man made symbols, the real love and passion of ones country is defined by one's experience, history, love and pride. After which the flag or anthem only becomes a symbol that evokes all the those feelings.
I don't care what is the color of the flag we salute every day.
It doesen't matter what national antheme..
What really matters is building institutions ,reserving citizens rights ,protecting our heritage ,studying our history ..
Libya's history is being destroyed on regular basis ,our heritage is lost..The pride inside us is dying because there is no respect to the citizen ,no protection of the rights.When that happens ,,we will be proud of the symbols of our nation ,even if they weren't glamorous or attractive..
All i want is to see Libya becoming a HOME for all libyans ,not for the fat cats ,or the fanatics ,or the secret service agents..
Green ,yello ,white ,with a cresent or a star or with out them ,with an original Libyan anthem or not ...It doesn't make a difference as long as LIBYANS doesn't feel LIBYANS..
and believe me,what makes us feel this way is not a flag or an anthem..
It is the pride that comes with respect..
As usual dear anglo-libyan:GREAT POST...i do love it because it touches all of us ,every one with his own perspective..
Good job
Regards
Greetings, Brother Anglo. I understand a lot of your feelings about the green rag (khirga). In my view, it does not represent Libya or Libyans, nor does the official name of Libya, or the anthem, or the newly invented city names, etc. I, too, am somewhat shocked by how some young people relate to it and identify with it. I used to be more annoyed than I am now, but I still get annoyed. I think the issue is really about one's sense of identity and of ownership of that identity. I consider myself lucky that I got out of Libya at a young enough age, to be challenged and forced to re-examine and redefine my own identity. I'm sure you can relate to that. I think, the green rag is no more representative of Libya than the Nazi flag is of Germany. I am sure a lot of young Germans under the Nazis felt nothing represented Germany more faithfully than their little swastika. In historical terms, that was just a glitch. The Libyan glitch will also find its way down the drain of history.
Having said all of that, I must also say that the flag of the kingdom does nothing to me either. On objective grounds, one can argue the kingdom flag was more representative because it was not dictated by the whims of a single person, and it was specified in a constitution and never altered. But, still, I do not consider it the product of a free, equitable democratic process. The process that produced it was subject to external influences that favored the king and tipped the balance in favor of his supporters. For example, the three provinces (Tripoli, Barqa and Fezzan) were given equal representation in the parliament, even though the population of Tripoli exceeded the other two combined! That was not fair, and it was done because the center of mass of opposition to the king, and I would dare say opposition to the whole Sanusiya movement was in the state of Tripoli. There is a lot of evidence in support of this point, and I don't want to get into it now. The short version is, while I agree the old flag is a lesser evil, I think it is still not what I hope for in a national symbol. Besides, I object to the whole notion that the state of Libya was born with that flag. Libya existed as a geopolitical entity, though under the name of Tripoli, long before that flag. And it was united before the Sanusi kingdom, and it had flags, lots of them! But your and my generation were taught to dismiss all of that, and to "salute Idris, descendant of the Islamic conquerers, and symbol of Jihad in Libya." So, my friend, the brainwashing that led younger Libyans to be proud of a symbol of dictatorship and criminal oppression is more intense but qualitatively similar to the brainwashing that causes people of our generation to take pride in the Sanusi flag. As far as I am concerned, a genuine collective Libyan identity has yet to be born, and I mean born freely at home, not fabricated in China for little slaves to wave proudly in their master's parades.
I really love our flag Old & New 1
both of them ,becoues they talked about the same Country Libya.
pace
Just a simple question here: in how many countries of the world were the people activly involved in choosing thier flag or anthem? Mainly these are choses from the countries representitives.
I grew up with the green flag; i don't know another one. I was stanging in the morning line (tabor) at school and singing the anthem everyday. So i am used to it.
But in general, i am waiting for the day that a libyan sports player or sports team wins a gold medal, and i bet with you that every libyan will stand up for the national anthem and look it his flag, and it will not make a difference how this flag will look alike, you just will feel proud, we all will feel proud.
But it is a nice post, actually some time ago i was talking about this topic with a friend. We were talking about the pride that you see in people of other countries while looking at their flag or singing their anthem, while alot of libyans do not feel related to it.
I am sure a lot of young Germans under the Nazis felt nothing represented Germany more faithfully than their little swastika.
I do not think I will agree with you, because my mother "German" family members fought in the WWI and WWII, they are very proud Germans. At least the Germans have achieved a lot under Hitler in many fields, besides his Holocaust and other war crimes.
Bid to restore Iron Cross awakens Germany's angst
iht.com/articles/2008/03/19/
europe/cross.php
You can not convince a generation which was born few years or after 1969 not to respect the Green Flag. I respect them for defending their love for the flag and to be proud of their country.
Have you ever asked yourself why Libyans ended up in this miserable situation. Am I going to blame Qaddafi for everything went wrong in Libya.
"I consider myself lucky that I got out of Libya at a young enough age, to be challenged and forced to re-examine and redefine my own identity"
All my life I lived outside Libya except the university years it was a great experience but all I can say that Libyan students were self centered, they all cared about is to get a scholarship to USA and other parts of the world, get BMW 2002 like the army and police officers and the ladies just wanted to get married to those men. The men would care only travel to the communist countries or Malta, it is the same attitude what Gulf men do in Cairo because it was cheap to screw around.
The university students had no interest in politics, 3/4 of the male students in university were mostly roaming at the College of Education as if they have never seen women in their lives.
Qaddafi was smart enough to control the students, by jailing and beating them who were activists. Most students did not care less what happened to their colleagues.
Honestly I think the new generation specially the ladies are far better than my generation when it comes to education, self esteem, independence, ambition, character, intellectual. Look at the Libyan bloggers, many are young female ladies, check the Arab dating sites, many are doctors, engineers, dentist and others with high degrees. I will be honest with you Arab women now are high educated with very high Muslim values but men are the ones who screw around.
Things will not get better in Libya, because corruption started many years ago by getting army contracts by bribing the officers, then the Elites were the ones who were living great during the Qaddafi Libyan Depression.
Qaddafi was saved by the Bell when Bush nailed Saddam Hussein, he had to make peace with USA, opening to the west, new kind of corruption rising again in Libya with all new projects.
As for now, Libyans were living in poverty for so many years do you think they will give a shit about politics. Libyans have cellphones, satellites,internet,mp3 players,text messages,ps2,XBox, downloading music & movies, these benefits will make life enjoyable. This generation is fortunate to have all these benefits to improve these lives.
All I hope to see more Libyans to be active in any form for better Libya. The Libyan bloggers are doing great job by posting their political and social views about Libya or on an individual level.
Many Libyans lives have been altered because of Qaddafi actions. If you are one of the Libyans who is really pissed off by Qaddafi, you should not have your anger targeting young generation who were born after 1969. Blame it to the selfishness or carelessness of the Libyans attitude in the past for the mess we are in.
Nelson Mandela was jailed for many years but he did not use anger to get even.
It is nice post,we have the new generation on one side and the old generation on the other side. I can be bias to my generation to a certain point but I can not ignore the reality what happened in the past.
In the long run Libya will get better, maybe not in my life time but because the world is changing very fast and getting smaller, we can no longer ignore what goes around us because we are affected whether we like it or not.
It is great to see Libyans are proud of Libya during the Kingdom and also during the republic.
I thank Libyan Bloggers for sharing their views, their daily lives, their weddings, personal problems. It is really nice to see great parents among Libyan bloggers, to go extra mile for their kids.
Danny and the Junior
youtube.com/watch?v=OauMxtbktrU&
feature=related
Suliman
Thank you for writing about the Germans :-) or else I did not know what to write.
"At least the Germans have achieved a lot under Hitler in many fields..."
I disagree with the context of this Musiclover's statement. Of course Germans have achieved a lot under Hitler, as they have also before and after Hitler. I also admit that Hitler's government may have contributed to some achievements. However, I see no reason to give this government non-specific credit for every single German achievement during its 12-year rule.
Bulgarian Communist authorities used the same approach. They said, "In Bulgaria, people's (socialist) rule asphalted roads, wiped out malaria and tuberculosis..." So socialism was credited for every good thing achieved during its 45-year long rule. Of course a country is expected to make some progress for half a century! Jokers added other achievements of socialism: "During capitalism (i.e. pre-1944) Bulgarians had no TV sets. And none of them had even seen a computer."
The Kingdom flag has nothimg to do with Libya .. It was a symbol of an old Algerian man (Alsunussi) who was imposed as a king on Libya .. for geopolitical and tribal reasons .. in order to guarantee independence ...
It's a really interesting post about the flag and the anthem. When i used to be in school i used to argue about the flag and the anthem and what their meaning to our country. Most of my class mate didn't feel any sense of belonging and that, especially the anthem, didn't represent them. We laughed and cried when we knew that the anhtme was borroed from Egypt. Most of the anthems that i know talk about their country, but ours doesn't even mention libya. Even on tele they don't shant or say libya they only shout or sing for specific thing (alfateh and qaddafi). I strongly think that the government wanted everything to revovle around it rather than building our love and attention for our country.
I remember once my foreign friends were talking about their counttries and what their flags and anthems represented. I truely didn't know what to answer, i couldn't say that our anthem was borroed and our flag was forced on us.
When i read about the old flag and what it represents i felt that it should have stayed as our flag. Even in the old anthem the name of libya is mentioned :) which make you feel a sense of belonging. in my openion it is way better than the one that we use now.
Hi Anglo ,
A great post indeed with a lot of controversy!
With your permission Anglo,(nothing personal dear Brother)
Suliman,
For the first time I totally agree with you. Flags , be they what colour they may be ,aren't our problem , but that of our people is.I teach all generations of Libyans, so I know what Im dealing with first hand. Our people generally speaking have a problem of expressing anything of value, due to the acknowledgeable factor of the unknown, hence they become frightened of expressing their views...as this was never taught them, in any shape,form or manner.I am not putting our people down with my statement, but on the contrary, I help with introducing them with what they have missed out on, at least I hope Im doing something to help our people and not just commenting and being so philosophical about it !
The flag is the embodiment, not of sentiment, but of history.
Woodrow Wilson (1856 - 1924)
History and Geography are subjects which are at taught to a minimum here in Libya, so how are we to expect our Libyan people to express their patriotism of their flag or other?
Musiclover,
Many Libyans lives have been altered because of Qaddafi actions. If you are one of the Libyans who is really pissed off by Qaddafi, you should not have your anger targeting young generation who were born after 1969. Blame it to the selfishness or carelessness of the Libyans attitude in the past for the mess we are in.
And again I quote you: mess WE are in ?You are in no mess brother, cause you chose to leave your country and have done nothing for it !I believe this is usually the quote you sometimes use:
Ask not what your country can do for you....JFK
to which I add a further part of the famous speech:
To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do - for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder. (from the JFK speech in Berlin )
And if we are to blame it on politicians you again are wrong for "politics" is nothing other than a word derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'........
We, as Libyan professionals have to help our people in any which way we can to update them with the world we all live in. Even if you hold a US or UK passport,you are always LIBYAN deep inside whether you admit it to yourself or live in denial....so if you have guts to comment ,do so constructively !
Libyan (Ladies)Bloggers/Professionals be they on dating sites or whatever... have improved on their lifestyles and tastes due to becoming more open minded and self dependant, as they have put all their efforts into their education and not in search for the impossible ,Libyan controlling freak of a mate, who will nearly always be a disappointment. So our men can ,and do screw around all they want,as they are selfish pigs. Libyan men are no exception!
NB I did say men and not gentlemen !
(Sorry for the language, Anglo as I got a bit carried away Nothing personal as usual.)
PEACE
This is a good link for further info:
Ihttp://www.theodora.com/flags/meaning.html
Nice post AL.
I'm really like this kind of debate.
First of all I'd like to clear one point, Libyan kingdom's flag is not belong to Algrian tribe, but totally belongs to Libya it self
1-The green Part is referred to TRIPOLI cos it's known by farms and trees when i mean tripoli i mean the western part as whole.
2-the red part referred to BARQA which already known by RED BARQA
3- THE BALCK part referred to FAZAN WHICH WE ALREADY KNOW MOST OF SOUTHERN LIBYAN people most likely blacks
4- the start and the crescent belongs to the OTHMANI empire where the star mean the five basic parts of islam ALsoom, alzaka, etc
and the crescent referred to the shape of Othmani empire which if have a look on old maps you will find that othmani empire has a crescent shape.
the other issue me myself i don't like Libya green flag cos it doesn't represent anything for me , but i'll fight to keep it up whether i like Qadafi or not
and it is not matter we borrow the anthem and the flag from Egypt or isreal, it is matter is the anthem represent us or no. if u take deep look to most of Arab flags what u will see is that all are the same, all of them consist of the basic colors red, green,black and white
if u need to know why, i'll tell you that is because of Famous Iraqi poem by Maroof Alrasafi معروف الرصافى
who says this poem
سل الرماح العولي عن معلينا
واستشهد البيض هل خاب الرجا فينا
لقد سعينا فلم تضعف عزائمنا
عما نروم ولا خابت مساعينا
قوم اذا استخصموا كانو فراعنة
واذا حكموا كانت موازينا
بيض صناعئعنا سود وقائعنا
خضر مرابعنا حمر مواضينا
لايرى الموت منا
ولو راينا المنايا في امانينا
as you see no one from Arab country said why we borrow our flag colors from Iraqi poem and that what happen with Libyan anthem now.
i don't find anything bad to borrow good things from others. in the fact we must be thankful to Italian because them who establish the word of Libya and bring it back from the history to the future.as u see we still new country less than 100 years.
i don't agree that Qadafi in his own is the responsible about what happen to Libya now, i believe he is the main player for that but one person can not do all damage that happen in Libya now. we must admit the majority of Libyan are able to be bad people because i think they are still lack of the civilization culture within the community.
i believe there is hope in the future to be good nation but to make this happen we need alot of work and debate.
And again I quote you: mess WE are in ?You are in no mess brother, cause you chose to leave your country and have done nothing for it !I believe this is usually the quote you sometimes use:
Does it bother you that I live abroad but to make it clear for you, I was living in the dorms at the university as my home was in Cairo. You want me to live homeless in Tripoli after I graduate. Why do I have to live in Libya just to meet your expectations.
Ask not what your country can do for you....JFK
to which I add a further part of the famous speech:
JFK might be famous for his speeches and Peace Corps but for historians he was a terrible president. His failure was Bay of Pigs invasion, Cuban Missile Crisis & Vietnam.
People are always fascinated by famous people who die in tragic death such Kennedy, James Dean, John Lennon, Marlyn Monroe and etc....
Even if you hold a US or UK passport,you are always LIBYAN deep inside whether you admit it to yourself or live in denial....so if you have guts to comment ,do so constructively !
It is amazing that it bothers you, that Libyans have other passports. Since it bothers you, how do you want these Libyans who live abroad to raise their kids, do they raise them as Libyans or the parents adopted country citizens.
The question to you, did you live in Tripoli during the 70's in Libya and were you a student during the 7th April event at Tripoli University :-)
Old generation talks about the good old times and the beautiful flag we had. Do not forget this is my generation you are talking about.
Freedom is a price I am willing to pay and live abroad. Just because you live in Libya makes you a better Libyan, which I find it absurd.
I agree that Qaddafi destroyed the nice Libyan character, which is hard to fix, it is like a heroin addict in a rehab.
Every Libyan loves his country in his own way, it is normal that every generation criticizes the other generation. Just because the new generation loves the present flag, I have to think of them as fools and get aggravated.
It is so obvious that Qaddafi was copying Mao Zedong by issuing the Green Book similar to Red Book and change the flag to green.
Yes the flag and the anthem suck, every time I look at the Morocco, Algeria and Tunis flags I get pissed off because we have such a crappy flag, it reminds me of an art work which has not been finished. It would have been nice to add crescent and stars.
UT you do a great job in what you do and thank you for your comments.
Here is a song to remind you of the old good times in Libya :-) Have a smile on your face.
youtube.com/watch?v=xd7MVwET0QY
youtube.com/watch?v=pHF-iApfWis&
feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=zhRjDLptg5E&
feature=related
For young Generation :-)
The Smashing Pumpkins - Tonight, Tonight
youtube.com/watch?v=EsZYqaSc4cU
With your consent dear Anglo,
Musiclover,
It does not bother me where you lived in the past nor where you live now, plus the fact of meeting MY expectations, which is besides the point of discussion and is personal. Do I know you ?
You have obviously misinterpreted what I said…
As for the JKF famous speech:
It is one that you always quote, on many blogs .For the fact of mere fascination to which my reply is that never has the death of anyone famous bothered or fascinated me the least. A person goes through different events, in life at the end we all die, whether famous or not. Its not death but mere life of the deceased and what he /she gave to humanity that counts, nothing else.
For the passport issue, I will let you know that I too have a dual passport. Yes I lived in Libya until the late 70’s, and even when I did leave to study abroad I always came back to visit. You are going elsewhere with your implementations and not sticking to the subject---- Whatever choice you make concerning your kids is personally no concern of mine ie as the old English saying says: “you made your bed , you sleep in it !”(nothing personal mind you ).
I opted to give my kids the best of both worlds, and Im truly proud of how they turned out.
I never said I was a better Libyan, but stated that Im doing something for my people and not sitting on my *** . I can go to sleep at night knowing I have done my best and taught my fellow countrymen something .
Qaddafi destroyed nothing, and the Libyan spirit is as always pure, friendly and decent, I’m proud to say.
Old generation talk about the good old times…….
I respect your view due to being of an older generation, which isn’t news whether it concerns Libyan issues or not ie the older generation ALWAYS insist that theirs was a better generation than the present and vice versa.
You thank me for my comments and I will ditto that, but as for having to smile I believe is no concern of yours and is besides the point .
PEACE
NB* Anglo this has nothing to do with you , for I have never doubted the love you have for your country and its people….
I didnt think this would turn up to be an intersting post, I have really learnt a lot from your comments, some facts I knew, some I didnt know, some fiction too.
I wonder if the Libyan government changes the flag yet again, would many still say I love the flag, its in my heart?? most civilised countries stick to their flag, no matter who is ruling them.
my point about the anthem being borrowed is nothing to do with which country it was borrowed/nicked from but the fact that it was not made for Libya.
many thanks to all of you
God bless Libya :)
Thanks for the lovely introduction into Libyan history.. it's so interesting!
thanks buj
nice as always :o)
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